Known for her presence on TV as a legal analyst and crime show host, currently host of the podcast, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, former Atlanta prosecutor Nancy Grace is a force in the field of true crime. Author of five books, her Hailey Dean crime fiction series was adapted for TV on the Hallmark Channel. She is currently working on a new Hailey Dean book. Her latest book, What Happened to Ellen? is the astounding true story of the brutal stabbing death of a young Pennsylvania school teacher on January 26, 2011. In pursuit of justice for the victim and her family, Grace brings forth fire and passion. She has dedicated her time and talent to not only researching and writing the book but also to narrating the audio edition with all proceeds pledged to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. In a recent interview, Grace described how she was introduced to the case of Ellen Greenberg and what ignited her quest for answers.
Interview by Judith Erwin
Q: Please describe how your latest book, What Happened to Ellen? came about.
Nancy: The first time I saw Ellen [in a photo], she had these beautiful brown eyes. I looked at her photo, and it looked like she was looking directly at me, imploringly, such as, “Help me.” I still remember that moment. After I saw her and had that feeling, I started investigating the case. I met Ellen’s parents, and I really believe they embody a lot of what Ellen was. Ellen was a 20-something-year-old first grade teacher—her life in front of her. She had met Mr. Right and had just sent out save the dates for their wedding. The two lived together in a beautiful apartment near Philly. The day of her death, a nor’easter blew in. Her students went home early, and Ellen left school early. She stopped to fill her car with gas, which is important to be prepared in case she was snowed in and had to get out. She went home and started making this giant fruit salad. The fiancé came home, but before he got there, she had called every single child’s family to make sure each child got home safely. Every parent she spoke to said how bubbly and happy she was on the phone—also important. So, the fiancé comes home. She’s making the salad, and he decides to go work out. I’ve got him on video, closed circuit TV, going to the workout room at the apartment complex. He says he came back up forty-five minutes to an hour later, and Ellen had been stabbed twenty times, at least twenty times. I say at least because with overlapping stab wounds, it is like biting into Jello. You can’t really look at it and tell how many bites have been taken when there are overlapping stab wounds. But I can document twenty stab wounds. That’s critical. Eleven were to the back, including one stab that was so severe it sliced her dura, which is the protective sheath around the spine. And she continued stabbing herself? That’s the theory—that she stabbed twenty times, even after slicing her own spine, which connects your brain to your body. It’s like your nerve center. There were eleven to the back. And police said it was a suicide? They were told when they arrived, the fiancé came up and found her body. She was sitting on the floor, leaning back against the cabinets. He advised police there was no break-in, and there was nothing stolen. So, they decided it was a suicide. When Ellen’s body got to the medical examiner, Dr. Marlon Osborne ruled it a homicide. But about two days later, there was a closed-door meeting between Dr. Osborne, a female representative from the District Attorney’s Office, and Philly PD. In his sworn statement, the medical examiner [Osborne] says they pressured him to change his ruling from homicide to suicide. So, he did. Which means there was never a criminal investigation as to what happened to Ellen. Her parents, Josh and Sandee [Greenberg], have spent their life savings and just sold their home, fighting to clear her name. He is an oral surgeon, and Ellen was their only child—their only child. This was not a suicide. I’d also like to point out that even I, with the naked eye, can see bruising around her throat and on her wrists. So, what? She subdued herself first by strangling herself, and then stabbed herself dead? It’s preposterous. That did not happen. And I do not know why Josh Shapiro, the governor of Pennsylvania, won’t intervene. What are they covering up? Let this be a trial. Let this be a real investigation and find out what happened to Ellen. And that’s what the book is about.
Q: In reading the autopsy report, I saw that the scalp wound labeled “J” had no hemorrhage, meaning it was likely post-mortem as the scalp is known to bleed if compromised, and yet she was found with a knife protruding from her chest. How could a wound be post-mortem and a subsequent wound be self-inflicted?
Nancy: Exactly.
Q: Is there a person of interest or suspect if it is a homicide?
Nancy: As of right now, there is no person of interest named; there is no suspect named. I have learned from trying many cases that while I may have a theory, I never put it out there, because I don’t know all the facts. For instance, in the Brian Kohberger quadruple murder case, who would have thought that a PhD student from another university came over to University of Idaho, stalked these girls he had never met before, planned it for months, sneaked in, murdered four people, and got out without a trace–barely a trace that is? You couldn’t have figured that out. So, I don’t call it until I know for sure. Another reason, I never call a case ahead of time, unless I really believe I know, and I don’t know what happened to Ellen, is because once you do arrest the correct person, that’s a perfect defense. They would say, “Hey, Nancy Grace said so-and-so did it two months ago.” I have theories, but I need more facts. Was somebody stalking her? Was there a delivery person in the building that day that we don’t know about that had been stalking Ellen and had access to janitorial closets or hiding holes? There’s so much that could have happened that I never, never snakebite the case ahead of time. That’s why we must have a full investigation and a trial. And I believe the only way to get that, at this juncture, is to bring in the Feds. Now, I hate the Feds, and I was a Fed for three years before I became a violent felony prosecutor for the next ten years. The current district attorney’s office is not doing anything. Why? I think they’ve got too many ties to the last district attorney’s office that allowed this to be ruled a suicide. They’re connected; so, they can’t try the case. The AG [Attorney General] is the one doing nothing. He can’t try the case. Josh Shapiro, the governor, was the Attorney General at the time. The only way for a real investigation is to bring in the Feds. That’s what we’ve got to do. Bring in the Feds. Why this won’t happen, I do not know.
Q: Have there been any recent developments in the case?
Nancy: There has been a recent court ruling where the case can be reopened, and I’m waiting for the district attorney, who seems like he’s not gonna do a darn thing. In the meantime, Ellen’s parents have spent all their money, sold their house in fighting for justice, and nobody is helping them. No one is helping them. My plea, now, is for there to be a full and independent investigation. She did not commit suicide. I’ve got one more fact. I call it the wrong way blood. Ellen was found sitting up, as I described, slouched on the kitchen floor, her back against the lower kitchen cabinets. On her is the wrong way blood. You’re familiar with gravity, Sir Isaac Newton. What goes up must come down. There is blood dried, trickling from her nose to her ear, horizontally across her face, which means for the blood to trickle from her nose to her ear, she was supine, lying on the floor. It dried that way. The killer didn’t see it and left it on her face to be found. Another thing I’d like to tell you is that in that secret closed-door meeting between the district attorney’s office and police and the medical examiner, where they pressured him to change his ruling, the female district attorney, ADA, got immunity. Immunity, which means she can’t be prosecuted for what happened in that meeting. Now, I tried cases for over a decade. I never had to take immunity. There is something very wrong with this scenario. Everything in this makes no sense unless it is definitely a cover-up.
Nothing was stolen. There was no sex attack that we know of. So, why won’t they just have an independent investigation? And if we’re all wrong, no foul, no harm, nothing, it’s fine. And I want to point out, I do not have a pecuniary, or money interest, in this book. Any proceeds are going to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. I want an investigation. That’s why I wrote the book. And it took a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to write that book. And I voiced the audio myself. I gotta tell you, it took me days and days and days. I would go every Friday for weeks to a recording studio to voice the book. I would have to stop often, because it would make me start crying when I would read the words out loud. What happened to Ellen, and how wrong the whole thing is. I’m just… it’s… it’s been overwhelming for me. Again, I’m not putting any theory out there, right now, but I do know that there was no break-in to the home. Everything about this story just does not add up. You could not put it in a mathematical equation and have it come out with an answer. It just doesn’t. That’s why we need a trial.
Q: Is there anything else you would like people to know?
Nancy: I’d like people to know that, even now, the family is working, and I am hoping for a good outcome. Also, there was an online petition. Once they get to a certain number, signatories can be sent to the authorities to try to get the case reopened. And it’s just a shame that we’re having to do all this to seek justice. It really is. But I have high hopes that someone, somewhere will have the power and the guts to reopen Ellen’s case and appoint an independent prosecutor. That is my hope. That is my dream. And that is my belief. I am going to finish it.
Review by Judith Erwin
What Happened to Ellen? provides a comprehensive view of the known facts about the stabbing death of Ellen Greenberg with a close look at the quest of the victim’s parents to change the official cause of her death from suicide to homicide. It can best be described as a compelling documentary in a book. It not only traces the horrendous death but also provides details about the victim, her background, family, relationships, and the mission begun by her parents and joined by the author. Adding to the narrative are legal documents including a deposition transcript of the medical examiner on the case and the autopsy report. For anyone interested in true crime, the book is a mesmerizing account of the official handling of a tragic death and questions it has raised.
